Alien Movie Universe

Snorkelbottoms Scientific Theory

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Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-12-2012 11:11 AM
There seem to be a lot of scientifically minded members on these forums therefore I am inviting them, and any other members that genuinely which to participate in this discussion (which will probably get heavy, forewarned is forearmed) into this thread to discuss my "Maverick" scientific theory. Rather than post the entire theory in one big long, tedious and complex post I will begin with the following points present in my theory... 1. Our solar system was NOT born by the process described in [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_theory]Accretion theory[/url]. 2. Our planet, solar system, galaxy and universe are [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe]older[/url] than people think. 3. The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang]Big Bang theory[/url] is "partially" wrong. [u]The Facts[/u] With that lot out of the way, now to parts of the actual theory itself... 1. The Earth, and all of the planets in our solar syatem are "extremely" slowly moving away from the sun. 2. All the planets in our solar system are orbiting around the sun in the same direction (revolution)... [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Ecliptic_plane_3d_view.gif/220px-Ecliptic_plane_3d_view.gif[/img] [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Solarsystem3DJupiter.gif/220px-Solarsystem3DJupiter.gif[/img] 3. Which is also the same direction they are all (except Uranus and Venus) and the sun spinning on their own axis (rotation). These 3 points are observable/proven FACTS, that disprove Accretion theory and through logic, deduction, reason and common sense open up an unexpected can of worms. But before disclosing it to you, lets see if you can see what I see from these 3 observable/proven FACTS. [u]Part One - The Small Picture[/u] The Accretion Theory, in summary has two major flaws... 1. The composition of the outer planets Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune 2. The existence of only two "belts" - the asteroid belt and the kuiper belt. If, according to Accretion theory our solar system was born from a cloud of dust, which through the process of accretion resulted in the 8 planets then how can the 4 outer planets be entirely composed of gas. And in relation to point 2, wouldn't there be more belts of debris left over from this process. Logically it just doesn't sit right. I've teased you this point with observable and known facts (see above), and some of you may or may not have deduced were this initial part is heading. So rather than continuing to tease you I will reveal the first part of the theory... ...all the planets in our solar system were born from the sun... [b]Stage 1[/b] Billions of years ago our Sun ejected, or rather vomited, a small amount of its molten surface. Because of the Sun's rotation (and revolution - more of that in part two), gravity and the force of which "glob" was ejected it was held in orbit (revolution) around the Sun. The shape of this "Glob" became spherical beacuse of the aforementioned forces acting upon it, and because of the vast coldness of space the outer layer hardened into a crust. Being so close to the Sun, and because of its molten core, this small "glob's" crust would frequently crack emitting gases which would then be held within what is known as an exosphere. Yes, you guessed it... Mercury is stage 1 It should be obvious now where this is heading for those of you that follow this thread so I'll summarise... [b]Stage 2-4[/b] As the stage 1 planet drifts further away from the Sun, it swells emitting more gases, that accumulate into an atmosphere, which helps "normalize" the temperature of the planets surface. This is stage 2 - Venus. As the surface becomes hospitable and with the production of an ozone layer and liquid water, the planet becomes habitable. This is stage 3 - Earth. With the gradual build of carbon dioxide and the gradual deteriation of the ozone layer liquid water is evaporated and/or frozen beneath the planets surface, which itself becomes barren and lifeless. This is stage 4 - Mars. [b]Stage 5[/b] No planet in our solar system is stage 5. Why? because stage 5 is more of an event than an actual stage... With a barren, lifeless and volcanic and tectonicially dormant surface a stage 4 planet is dangerous. Underneath Mars' crust it is just like that of Earth - molten, hot and violent. But because the surface of Mars is dormant this heat and energy has no means to escape. Using the analogy of a balloon, Earth is like a balloon filled with many needle holes - with the right amount of air used to constantly fill the balloon it would retain its inflated shape, but Mars is a balloon with on holes, no means of escape - blow too much air into a balloon, what happens? That is stage 5. [b]Stage 6[/b] Stage 6 covers all 4 of the outer planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune). Because of event "stage 5" all that would remain held by the planets gravity would be its atmosphere. In the explosion the crust and molten core would have been ejected forcefully out into space (asteroid belt, Kuiper belt), possibly impacting other worlds (extinction events) and/or getting caught in a planets gravitational hold (moons, rings). The planets atmosphere however, having less mass would not be able to maintain the velocity required to escape the planets gravitational hold, and ultimately would not be able to escape. But the force of the stage 5 explosion would result in the atmosphere reaching farther out than when the planet was solid. Over the course of the planets existence as a stage 6, this atmosphere would be gradually pulled in toward the planets core, essentially causing them to slowly shrink before leading finally to the next stage. [b]Stage 7[/b] Most stage 7's exist within the Kuiper belt. Put simply they are are stage 6's that have continued to shrink, to the point where their gaseous atmospheres became condensed into a liquid surface, and then condensed further into a spherical piece of rock.

67 Replies

zzplural

MemberOvomorphJan-01-2013 12:14 PM
Snorky, Your theory was hotly debated in the early part of the 20th century, but was widely disregarded by scientists in favour of accretion. Accretion is a simple process that is well understood today and no serious professional astronomer believes (any more) that planets were originally spat out of the Sun. The fact that planets may be moving away from defined orbits is easily explained by tidal forces. Closer to home, the Moon, for example, moves away from us at around the same speed that your fingernails grow, because of tidal forces induced by the Earth. It is widely believed that the Moon was formed from an accretion disk around the Earth, itself generated as a result of an impact with a Mars-sized body. The inner solar system is largely devoid of gas and dust because the solar radiation here is very much greater than in the outer solar system. It can be demonstrated that – up to a certain size and distance from the Sun – (outward) radiation pressure exerted on gas and dust particles exceeds the gravitational pull of the Sun. So, once the Sun lights up, it inexorably sweeps the inner solar system clear of light stuff.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent

iapetus

MemberOvomorphJun-14-2012 2:24 PM
at that point, my 3 respective theories would be? - Are you trying to say it looks like an opened eye? Yup, it sure does - Are you trying to say it looks like a vinyl record ? Yes, it sure does - Are you trying to say it looks like a broken egg ? Yeah, it sure does But then I have better.. [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Drudelmexikaner1.jpg[/img] I have "mexican cooking eggs in a frying pan" Yes, my good sir! Ok, back to patiently waiting for next step...

iapetus

MemberOvomorphJun-12-2012 11:45 AM
You have my Bow! me will participate, not right on tonight though. Will wait for a little more of your stuff to come out, and also tonight I'm full priority on finalizing my synthetic theory for the engineers, life, the universe and everything... Cheers pal, will come by later

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-12-2012 11:56 AM
This thread will get heavy, once other "scientifically minded" members join in and my theory is, bit by bit, revealed through the discussion. Might be an idea to link to mentioned elements for those wanting to join.

David 1

MemberOvomorphJun-12-2012 5:00 PM
1. The Earth, and all of the planets in our solar syatem are "extremely" slowly moving away from the sun. isn't that because the sun is extremely slowly loosing it's gravity pull? 2. All the planets in our solar system are orbiting around the sun in the same direction... + 3. Which is also the same direction they are all (except Uranus and Venus) and the sun spinning on their own axis. I didn't understand the point...
[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-12-2012 5:07 PM
@ David 1... think about it, and you may just see what I see... maybe draw it, or simplify it. The answers are right there in them three facts, its so obvious I'm surprised no-one has seen it.

NoXWord

MemberOvomorphJun-12-2012 5:26 PM
I'm all ears
Ridley Scott will eventually tell us how the Queen was born. Right now we have the Deacon; coming soon the Mercury, the May and the Taylor.

David 1

MemberOvomorphJun-12-2012 5:35 PM
are you saying uranus and Venus make a counter solar rotation or that they spin anti-clockwise? That's what I didn't understand
[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

NoXWord

MemberOvomorphJun-12-2012 6:53 PM
Just to clarify, in astronomy rotation is used to refer to a body's spin around its axis, while its rotation around another body (i.e. Earth around the Sun) is called revolution. Snorkelbottom is referring to the fact that Venus and Uranus have retrograde rotation (not revolution), which basically means that somebody on the surface of Venus would see the Sun rise in the west and set in the east. For Uranus this is not entirely true, because the whole east/west and north/south thing is pretty conventional, and Uranus's axis is not "vertical" but rather "horizontal". What does that mean? That Uranus can basically be seen as a ball rolling on a flat surface, and its poles don't point "up" or "down" (according to our view) but rather "sideways". :)
Ridley Scott will eventually tell us how the Queen was born. Right now we have the Deacon; coming soon the Mercury, the May and the Taylor.

iapetus

MemberOvomorphJun-12-2012 9:42 PM
Understood, David 1? Uranus points sideways... I repeat: - Uranus... - points sideways... - Ok, was not just trying to be funny again. Just meant to show I was still around and paying attention. Must say I'm still not seeing exactly where we're supposed to head, or even just how the 3 facts prove the accretion theory wrong. But am thinking about it and I'll stick around! cheers! (hehe... 'points sideways' good job, NoXWord!)

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-13-2012 5:13 AM
Well I give you all a little time to muse it over, but my suggestion to draw it might help you see what I'm seeing, then from there we can start getting heavily into this theory.

David 1

MemberOvomorphJun-13-2012 3:41 PM
"Uranus"... sideways.... hmmmm.... URANUS IS THE SODOMISTS HEAVEN??
[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-14-2012 3:56 AM
[quote] [url=www.prometheus-movie.com/member/5229]David 1[/url] [i]"Uranus"... sideways.... hmmmm.... URANUS IS THE SODOMISTS HEAVEN??[/i] [/quote] Yeah, and Venus is almost upside down, but we'll come to them two later...

iapetus

MemberOvomorphJun-14-2012 5:27 AM
sorry about Venus, it's me leaving her that way last time... I never got close to David's sideway problem though, so look somewhere else. Seriously though. Can any generic drawing of that be insightful/reveal what should be revealed? Don't want to either spend 3sec on a low quality one and then lose 10h thinking about it if it's not detailed enough ; or spend 10h on a quality one and then 3 days not finding 'the thing' cause I didn't chose the right planetary alignement. In conclusion, I suggest you draw one that is suited and upload it :) I'll be back!

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-14-2012 10:24 AM
@ iapetus - try this... draw earths orbit (revolution) around the sun as though in uber-fastforward, then again in uber-rewind, in a simplified, summary fashion. If I said anymore it would give too much away for the first page of the thread, which for the moment has remained fairly light and might help the curious get involved in this theory. I know at the moment it seems like something trivial, but once you're on board and see the starting point of the theory it opens up a uber-sized can of worms. Like they say... Big things have small beginnings!

iapetus

MemberOvomorphJun-14-2012 2:16 PM
hmm ok... sorta... but there are so many ways these things look like in astronomy, all depending about things like whether scale matters etc etc... or stuff like that. Sorry if I sound like the nitpicker or stoopid, maybe all others here got it right already. But to me you're still assuming a lot about what I get and don't get, like whether 'über-FF/über-rewind' has an importance... cause, provided we neglect or not the small orbital variations, that shouldn't make for a big difference then, as orbits would be ellipses... or does that mean I should 'scribble' the ellipses frantically? Ok, am too lazy to get to draw while we're still in the trial-and-error process so, I got 3 example with various levels of detail, kinda. Maybe you can tell me if any, all or none of these suit our needs here. beautiful graphics (!) with a vague attempt at respecting scale... though really not [img]http://www.worldculturepictorial.com/images/content/planet_in_solar_system.jpg[/img] better lookin but totally simplistic and most inaccurate [img]http://beautifulpixels.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/our-solar-system.jpg[/img] an old-school-scientific lookin and more accurate one, despite Pluto being ther... but the Alien universe reveres planetoids so lets be tolerant with our tiny offset friend [img]http://frigg.physastro.mnsu.edu/~eskridge/astr102/planet_orbits.gif[/img] Okay, hint some more, GrandMasta' Snork' !!

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-14-2012 2:53 PM
I like your level of aptitude Iapetus but at this point in time you are thinking way too complicated. Lets see if I can throw a bigger hint at you and others watching this thread... Draw a circle in the middle of a piece of paper (Sun), then a little out from that circle draw another smaller circle (Earth) then from that smaller circle draw, in an exaggerated fashion, craw the orbit (revolution) of earth as viewing down at the north pole (anticlockwise), remembering fact 1 from the OP... What are you drawing?

abordoli

MemberOvomorphJun-14-2012 3:19 PM
You'd be drawing a spiral, very thin in between layers, but a spiral none-the-less. Question: Why are scientists saying that we're headed in towards the sun? I think it's because the sun is transforming into a bigger star due to burning off its fuel, thus we're getting closer to the sun's outer edge whilst moving slightly away from it....but the outward gains won't be fast enough. In about a billion years "we" won't be able to go outside. Thus we need to find a new home although the urgency is not great....by why procrastinate....LOL.

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-14-2012 3:31 PM
@ Anthony... Scientists say we are moving away from the Sun because of a number of reasons (loss of gravitational pull, solar winds etc.), but the amount is so small it means that when the sun expands in approximately [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_sun#Life_cycle]5 billion years[/url], we wont be far enough away to avoid being roasted. BTW the sun is actually very, very slowly shrinking. But regardless, nicely spotted on the [b]spiral[/b]... we'll come back to that later. Now to the next point.... Q - If the Earth and all the planets are very, very slowly moving away from the Sun.. 1. Where will they be in 10 years time - further or closer to the Sun? 2. Where were they 10 years ago - further or closer to the Sun?

iapetus

MemberOvomorphJun-14-2012 5:39 PM
I was coming back to talk spiral. Now I know what your next point seems to be but will let others get into it a bit, they have to... hear me David 1 and NoXWord...!! also: Snorkel, did you major in "Ancient Art of the Tease and Mystery in Occidental Forumery" from the Lindelof-Academy?

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-15-2012 4:53 AM
@ iapetus... Lol, it comes across that way doesn't it. And I admit, when writing fiction, I do believe that the audience should be teased, confused, and (partially) manipulated by the writer - it makes the journey more fun for the audience I feel. But in this case, rather than write an overwhelming OP stating every little detail, which most wouldn't read unless interested, I find it better, more social, and more constructive to discuss each element of the topic piece by piece. That way most people will be able to follow what is being said and proposed. Also, seems interesting to "think" you know where this is going, I hope you do iapetus, the more questions you and others ask down the line will help those curious but less knowledgeable about these things, to follow the theory... and its ramifications.

David 1

MemberOvomorphJun-15-2012 9:02 AM
Since the Sun is not a Solid Body but a liquid fire sort of thing, it wobbles. That wobbling + it's gravity + all the Explosions that go inside and on it's surfface + all the energy it releasses and the distortion of space-time it produces makes the planets react to it [thus the spiral effect in Earth rotation]. Still not getting the Venus thing and Uranus thing.
[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]

iapetus

MemberOvomorphJun-15-2012 10:05 AM
David 1 again pointing finger at Uranus, Snorkel...

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-15-2012 10:38 AM
@ David 1... Your right about the Sun's wobble, but all the planets wobble too, because of shifts in their own gravity, and reactions within their molten cores (for the inner planets). That point is another, non-coincidental similarity between the Sun and the planets, but we'll come to that later. And for now just ignore Venus and Uranus, we'll also come back to them later. Again I'll ask these two questions, they mean seem trivial and nonsensical, but their importance is in the obviousness... Q - If the Earth and all the planets are very, very slowly moving away from the Sun.. 1. Where will they be in 10 years time - further or closer to the Sun? 2. Where were they 10 years ago - further or closer to the Sun?

Batchpool

MemberFacehuggerJun-16-2012 3:31 PM
Q1. further from the sun Q2. closer to the sun That's my answer anyway.

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-16-2012 4:27 PM
Exactly Batchpool, now here's one for the maths heads... The Earth is moving away from the sun at a rate of 15cm a year, and is approximately 150 million km from the sun (rounded off). How many years would it take (minus the effects of gravity and revolution - to simplify things at this point) for an object emitted from the sun, moving away from the sun at the rate of 15cm a year to travel 150 million km?

Batchpool

MemberFacehuggerJun-16-2012 5:34 PM
Let’s see if I’ve got this right. 100,000 cm = 1km, To travel 1km at 15cm per year takes 6667 years To travel 150 km takes 1,000,050 years To travel 150,000,000 km takes 1,000,050,000,000 years. Roughly.

iapetus

MemberOvomorphJun-17-2012 8:23 AM
yup, if we go with 150*10^6km and 15cm... converting both in meters goes: 150,000,000,000m / 0.15m/yr=1,000,000,000,000yr So... if I keep trying to divine where you're headed, are you implying that Earth (and other planets...?) was/were formed by outgrowths pearling off and away from the sun? and which accordingly would make Earth 1Tera-yr old? Cause, I got a small but tough gravel I might place in your shoe... Interesting stuff, but watch for your soles, me say! ; )

Spartacus

MemberOvomorphJun-17-2012 8:44 AM
Thanks iapetus I love Snorkys Threads and have been monitoring this to try to learn something and other than yourself no one else followed Snorkys suggestion and posted supporting Pics as you did, and I just love the pics, they are like "Cowbell" to me, and help so much to understand the science here...[b]"I GOT TO HAVE MORE COWBELL" !!![/b] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0uvVZg4Tw4]MoreCowBell[/url]

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJun-17-2012 8:46 AM
Well that figure isn't exactly right, because of the following reasons... 1. The closer Earth would be to the Sun the shorter its revolution would be. 2. The closer Earth would be to the Sun the effects of the Sun's gravity and "push" would be greater. 3. The younger the Sun is, its gravity and "push" would be greater. 1Gy, isn't exactly correct, it depends upon the standard used - some refer to a billion as being 1000 million, others to 1 million million - using the first standard the number would be 150 billion (second standard would be 150 thousand million), but as shown in points 1 and 2 that number isn't accurate. The actual number would be significant smaller... which could be approximated if we knew at what rate the other planets were moving away from the sun, and the rate of which the sun is losing its gravity. @iapetus, you are getting ahead of yourself, but lets save that hypothetical piece of gravel till we come to it... @ Sparky, glad you're keeping an eye on this thread. Contributions by all are welcome, as long as we all try to keep on topic (so as not to confuse those following the theory).

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